Battery Power For Audio - EcoFlow Pro

29 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Well, then tell the electricians and all the building codes they are wrong.

 

Stromtanks are batteries - have you listened to one of those?

Yes.  Twice.  In homes in systems. Its very good.  Expensive. 

The NEC is a bare minimum.  Builders looking to maximize profits built the lowest quality product,  meeting code minimum to maximize profits.

The code writing committee does not care about you and your stereo.  They care about life, safety and standardized rules to apply to everything.  

FWIW,  when I wired  data centers and hospital patient recovery or surgery room, the electrical specifications were  hundreds of pages.  They are all about providing superior electrical service to equipment in the room.  Nothing is buillt to code minimum.  Its all overbuilt for reliability and performance.  

Contractor provided wiring in your home that was not purpose installed for audio or AV is not at all suited to power  highly sensitive amplifying equipment found on your audio rack.  A well done for audio system electrical supply with multiple 10 awg branch circuits and a properly made up stock SqD QO or Eaton CH loadcenter will get you a good distance towards quality power for a stereo.  An all copper panelboard and additional attention to how circuits are run and terminated get you to the highest level.  At the point of a properly terminated loadcenter and 10 awg branch wires you can start accurately assessing what filters are really doing.  As well as ground boxes.  

22 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Well, the gent who designed Stromtank also designed MBL speakers.

I like MBL too.  Whats your point?

My gripe with Stromtank is a S5000 is around $60k.  A well done electrical power supply with a wall mount Torus or Equitech would be far superior on amps.  And you would save $40k.

If your in a NY walk up or just can not get  better power to your rack.  Get a Stromtank.  

FWIW Stromtank offered to make me a distributor.   I did not feel it was better than what I make with a properly applied electrical supply.  If I was a distributor and sold 1 x S5000 I would make the same take home I do selling 15 panels. Each panel takes me 14 or so hours to complete.  I do what I do because I have overseen 100 plus installations.  I know what a propper electrical power supply does for audio equipment.   Call me a fool, but making money isn't the end goal for everyone.  I would rather help people do it right.  

23 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

RIGHT the same codes that they use for houses they use also in industrial and used for Scientific equipment, etc. If they are not affected why is AUDIO so special? It isn't.

 Please, no one listen to botrytis.  This is the type poster that misleads and creates confusion.  He is incorrect in his assertions.  

 I have nothing more to say on this person or his comments.  I hope everyone else will understand why I am no longer acknowledging his posts.  

19 hours ago, UberK said:

Thank you so much for this post - I found it while I was going through a TONNE of issues (McIntosh / Sonus Faber and a hum). Yours (and a few others) led me down this path to clean power.

 

THIS WORKS. 

 

This is my post to call out that Power Conditioners are snake oil and that these solutions work (I did EcoFlow). 

 

The industry doesn’t like this due to these being highly scaleable systems with economics that kill a StromTank. Yes it works. No the price point is stupid. And to the poster on certifications, these systems are all certified - so sure, get an electrician to install it versus DYI. Isn’t that like anything?

 

My journey can be read in the below link where I cover everything. The summary is this:

 

1. Have a McIntosh system (5 amps, MX123, C12000), and Sonus Faber speakers.

2. Installed new amps which are MC hybrids (half tube, half SS) and bi-amped them. Noticed a very loud hum.

3. Went though the following trouble shooting (and more) based on “feedback” from people in threads and “experts” in stores

 

- ground loop. NO. Turned off all breakers, disconnected all non-stereo systems (PS, blu-ray), was on dedicated 20AMP line. Still there so no ground loop. Also did all the other things - hum plugs, no ground plugs, moving to Audience FR power cables, etc. etc. Nothing. 

- noise in the system - tried Niagara 5000, Torus, Puritan, PS Audio and a few others, still noise

- Rejected those who said “Power Conditioners are not meant to reduce hum” - nonsense - read the TrippLite and Niagara which talk about reducing grounding noise and explicitly call out - hum. It should have helped.

- In the below post - the only solution I did not test was “rip out all the wiring in your new home and have it reinstalled” and “install a 8’ ground rod” (which is a actually wrong, should be 12’). No. My wiring is fine.

 

Then I read about StromTank which is - a fancy battery. That is it. The price is stupid - sorry.

 

Then I read this post and others. I went to Costco, bought an EcoFlow, and brought it into the stereo room plugged it in and VOILA. No noise. (Plugged into the 20amp).

 

GONE. Black as black can be.

 

The Niagara 5000 - no change in sound with or without it. It is a very expansive door stop other than:

 

1. It is another surge protector behind the battery

2. I have a 1800w Gravis VI that would go crazy due to draw issues. The Niagara has a power well to help with that (although the new EcoFlow handles 21KWh output when configured at max)

 

You can read all of the high quality challenges to my post below - where I methodically go through each. In this use case, the issue is dirty power, the sensitivity of a tube amp (It is bi-amped, and the SS component had no hum) and in the end ….

 

WORKS. SOLVED. 

 

The caveat being I have this actually in the stereo room (not wired to the whole house yet) so the fans get loud on a Delta Pro but are silent on the new Delta Pro Ultimate. I will get around to that .. when I have time (with an electrician - doing the whole house because I am DARN impressed).

 

Of interest, the toxic “audio expert” trolls are on full display as many posted derogatory comments without taking the time to add to the discussion. 

 

Sad really.

 

But many did make good challenges, which I went through line by line.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amp-preamp-hum-power-conditioners-are-useless-snake-oil-batteries-do

 

THANK YOU. You are right!

 

And now .. I would not buy a StromTank. It works sure.

 

But I do not need it.

 

I solved the problem for 1/8th the price.

 

AS DID YOU!

 

What EcoFlow did you get.  I went to the site and its interesting.  I have never spent the time creating a batter supply for people as someone such as Ecoflow can make something professional.  And I can't really mark up the parts to make money for my time if people can get the same stuff from the manufacture for the price I get it.  There is little to no discount on solar batteries and inverters.  Even the big installers get little to no savings over what I would get if you or I called a distributor and asked to purchase one.

The Delta Pro Ultra looks the part.  You can add batteries as needed.   https://www.ecoflow.com/us/delta-pro-ultra

I see each 50 AH battery is about $3K.  Fair price if its lithium.

I see an inverter that puts out 30 Amps into 2 phases.  So 50A output total into a single phase.

I would not mess with the wall mount unit for audio.  That is going to add hardware and connection points. 

I would try it as is.  I would also look into feeding a Torus WM40BAL or WM60BAL from the output.  Especially if it has a single high output connection where you can put the full 30A x 240Volt output to the unit.

I have found it very difficult to get any specifics on the battery and inverter.  I had to call the company.  I am waiting on information to be sent to me.  The battery matters.  Lithium work better than other types.  Led Acid is not that good.  Either are the nickel based ones.  Batteries are also prone to catching fire during charging.  There is better technology that shuts down cells that are getting too hot.  I have not seen anything on the battery protection.

The inverter itself if the key component.  There are True sine wave inverters and Modified sine wave inverters.  A true sine wave has many more steps to make a complete sine wave.  A Modified inverter has far fewer and sine wave is very jagged.  Modified suck for audio.  They don't really work well for a lot of things.  But they are inexpensive and make higher power for less money.

The problem with asking someone like yourself to make a public assessment is you don't have a good power supply to your rack.  From what I have read you have a bad power supply to the rack.  Its maybe only 14awg wire that goes around the room.  Its part of the original build.   You probably have multiple connections that are stab into the back of a duplex and back out again.  These are the worst devices you can use.  They start fires.  They are the reason we have to install $75 AFCI breakers.  So many were burning down houses.  Instead of outlawing them and making the electrician wrap the wire around a screw and tighten it down, they make the breaker manufacturer create an expensive breaker that senses the arc and open the breaker.  If you had dedicated 10 awg to your rack terminated to a single duplex, then your perceptions would be more valid.  At that point I would want to know what you thought of the Ecoflow compared to a Torus.  Or any other filter for that matter.  Especially a Stromtank?????  Just how good is the inverter in a Stromtank???  So far Stromtank is the best battery supply.  But why?  Can a commercial unit better it?

5 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...some of us are hoping the new Taiko battery and BMS can up the game for audio. Expected to ship after the Munich show; expected to be shown at the Munich show. 

Yea, but that is only powering a DAC?  And maybe the server?  Its not a battery with a 30A x 240 volt output made to power the rest of the rack? 

Ecoflow just sent a link that sent me back to their page.  They don't publish any data on THD, noise from fans, inverter frequency.  I have found other companies that are making off grid inverters that are much more forthcoming with this information.  But they are more work.  It take custom jumper wires and custom distribution power strips to connect it all.  They put out loads more power too.  Some close to 100A max.  They are big and heavy and usually go on a wall.

My gut tells me Stromtank is an off the shelf inverter and battery.  But, they have lashed it together with copper wire and used good outlets.  Maybe they have something else inside.  I looked inside one and its full of stuff.  

I have always wondered why PurePower has such mixed reviews.  On the surface its no different than a Stromtank or Ecoflow.  Its a battery and inverter with duplex attached and a power cord to charge from the wall.  From what I hear, the smallest Purepower sounds the best.  The larger ones are not as well reviewed. 

For now I stand behind making the electrical infrastructure as optimum as can be.  It never fails.  Its fundamentally the right thing to do.  If you don't want to do that, use a Stromtank.   Go for it.  I can see how people feel it easy to buy something and set it on the floor.  It satisfies that itch of owning Stuff.  And it take up a load of room and is something to stare at.

3 hours ago, Jud said:

When looking at solar and battery supplies for audio, there’s something you will want to remember.

 

I researched these a few years ago, and the very best inverter specification I saw was 2% harmonic distortion. Utility regulation in the vast majority of the US sets 2% as the maximum harmonic distortion for power delivered to your home by the utility. So it’s quite likely your source will be cleaner coming from the utility rather than solar or battery. (I did not research systems such as the Stromtank to see whether their inverter specs were any better.)

 

What is responsible for “dirty power” is almost certainly nothing occurring outside the home, but rather what happens in the home. LED lights, motors for heat pumps, air conditioners, refrigerators, etc., microcontrollers (these days that can be anything from a toaster to a thermostat) will all put noise on the line. And of course there’s the wiring for your audio system and any ground and noise loops that may be involved. The usual safety measures involving sacrificial MOVs can also be sources of noise.

 

There are ways to be safe and “sound” (as in good sound) that don’t have to involve multiple tens of thousands of dollars. There are used isolation transformers with great specs, separate circuits for audio systems, optical fiber, safety equipment such as that made by ZeroSurge and others, that won’t break the bank.

Partially agree.

Yes, loads of noise comes from your house. 

I will make this 2 part.  Not all isolation transformers are equal.  Torus and Equitech are much better as a filter than other unless you get very esoteric and expensive.  Controlled power is a strong second but they are more for studios that have a panel fed from it powering the record/mix room.  Other commercial units are not filters.  They only change voltage.  Don't waste your money.

Being that not all transformers are good filters means the transformer on the power pole is not designed to be a good filter.  I doubt they have any shielding between the laminates.  And the windings are maybe aluminum.  

All the noise from everyones house and business is  passing through the utility transformerr and onto the main.   Street power is noisy.  It is best to clean it.  Usually not necessary.    But its a good option if you have the budget.   

Surge protection is dependent on good grounding.  That is the reason you want a good ground.

Surge protection works 2 ways.  Either way I don't believe I have ever met someone who heard a SPD.  The guys who sell them claim all sorts of stuff.  Here is the skinny.  

SPD can be designed to adress 2 types of suges.  Catastrophic (lightning) and micro (40 volt over fundimental wave micro surges).   Micro surge arrestors are also called Sine Wave Tracking or Sine Wave Correction, Active Sine Wave Tracking. 

Most every SPD is some form of lightning protection with little micro protection. They are not designed to track that close to the sine wave as they would quickly oerheat and fail.   If you paid under $500 its lighning only.  If your in a high lightning area there is nothing at all wrong with stacking 2, 3 even 4 in a panel.  The more the better.  Look for 60kA.  22kA is not enough. 100kA to 200kA plus in high lightning area is preferable. 

Micro surge arrestor are good for clearing micro arcs from your home like when a switche open and close, motors turning off and the resultant jolt from the magnetic field collapsing. 

SPD do not address high freq noise from SMPS, Wifi etc.  Filters address that noise. 

High freq noise is on the power line.  Lots of it.   Micro surges less so.  The utility transformer will clear a lot of that.  Micro comes from your own home.  Catastrophic surges are from the utility.  Maybe 30,000 volts if a major equipment failure or 200,000 if lightning hits a power line.  

A good SPD that address all types of surges in a meaningfull way cost about $2500.  

2 hours ago, UberK said:

@KingRex

The problem with asking someone like yourself to make a public assessment is you don't have a good power supply to your rack.  From what I have read you have a bad power supply to the rack.  Its maybe only 14awg wire that goes around the room.  Its part of the original build.   You probably have multiple connections that are stab into the back of a duplex and back out again.  These are the worst devices you can use.  They start fires.  They are the reason we have to install $75 AFCI breakers.  So many were burning down houses. 

 

No. I do not have faulty power. 

 

1. It is a new residence lived in for 2 years, at the 7 figure level.

2. The build is impeccable quality - and all trades were certified.

3. I have renovated 3 houses. A 110+ year old victorian (with contractors), and multiple other homes. In ever case, electrical and ethernet were micromanaged. Big panels, high quality products. 

4. The systems are run on a dedicated 20AMP line.

 

To your point, when I have this installed for the entire home, it will be done by an electrician. At this point I just have it dedicated to the system - and it is in a 20AMP outlet alone, with a GFCI.

 

I initially bought the EcoFlow Delta Pro - but the fans are loud and I do not like how it scales. 

 

I had it for 2 days and they announced the Ultra. I love it because:

 

1. Massive scalability by adding new systems

2. Very quiet. Zero noise.

 

Ecoflow has a great app for management also. There are many - Goal Zero is also fantastic.

 

I would have bought the StromTank I the pricing were more reasonable. 

You have a single 12 awg wire.  That's not adequate or correct.  But its a lot better than a general purpose 14 awg wire.

You have told us you have 1 amp out of 4? That has a hum issue.  

Your basing your assertion filters are snake oil on a single metrix.  Does your amp hum.  I have not seen you comment at all on clarity, sound stage, bass response.  Just hum.  I have heard filters that shut down noise, make the background black, suck all the life from bass, close in the soundstage.  Just destroy the music.  That is what I have heard certain brands of filters do in my house and others once you sort your electrical properly.  You notice the damage the filter is doing.  

I do not think changing the electrical supply to your rack will make your amp hum go away with more appropriate circuits to your rack.  I think that one amp has some issues or the tubes have issues.   If your battery got rid of the noise, great.   Odd, but great.   What other impacts did it have on the playback?  It didn't just impact hum.  It did other stuff.  Can you compare the way the amps perform direct to the wall or in the EcoFlow.

You really should have 3 circuits to your rack.  1 for amps, 1 for signal, 1 for digital.  A other for subs if you have them.  You have a lot of gear on a single 12 awg.  That is  not optimum.   But I'm curious how they compare. 

I hear you UberK.  I am not saying the experience you had is not real.  

What I am saying is I have rarely seen a power conditioner get rid of 60 or 120 cycle hum out of the speakers.  They get rid of hum you hear emanating from the unit itself.  They make a more quiet background and maybe take down a little hum/noise in the room.  But i can't personally recall hearing someone say they had tube noise hum stopped by a filter. 

Stromtank has done this one time and the power cord itself had to be removed from the wall so it was fixing a ground loop issue.  Source was in the Stromtank, amps to the wall.   

Its highly unusual that a filter would fix a speaker hum issue by filtering RF noise, which is what most all filters do. Filters do not filter ground issues.  Unplugging from the wall does fix ground issues.

RF does cause a lot of hum with phono systems.  This is almost universally an issue with the phono preamp allowing RF entering through the air and attaching to the equipment and modulating into the power supply of the phono preamp.  A filter to the power cord of a the phono equipment will do nothing as the RF is not in the utility power.  Its in the air and attaching to phono cables, cartridges, chassis of equipment.  A battery power supply would do nothing either.  A Faraday cage might work. 

I have seen proper wiring fix hum when it was a ground a few times.  I saw it at Fremers and a couple other houses. 

The Ecoflow might be breaking a ground issue.   If everything is plugged into the EcoFlow and nothing into the wall, you are probably breaking a ground issue.  Does not explain why a Denali would not do the same if you plugged everything into it. 

Did you plug everything into other filters?  All of it.  Did you plug everything into the EcoFlow?

Filters will provide some protection to equipment, but only surge protection if they have built in SPD. 

MORE CLARIFICATION. 

An AQ, Shunyata, Isoteck,  Furman Etc will allow your equipment to be destroyed in a brown out.  The only protection from a brown out is a Ecoflow, PS Audio Regenerator, Stromtank, Torus AVR or a filter purpose designed to adjust the output voltage during a brown out.   The unit has to be designed to maintain 120 volt output and to shut down completely and not power cycle on and off to truely protect in brown outs.   

The fact you said hum from tube equipment was eliminated by an Ecoflow is unusual in the filter of the Ecoflow fixing something other filters did not.  Especially since Ecoflow has up to 8% thd.  I have rarely seen THD that high from the utility.  Its usually 3% to 5%.  The better battery systems I have investigated have less than 3% thd    

I am hesitant to tell any audiophile to get a Ecoflow residential battery backup as a power supply to an audio system.  I have not heard you or anyone else sit down with the unit and do a propper analysis.   Audiophile are most always buying something to improve sound quality.  And to fix hum issues.  I have not heard any clear and thoughtful analysis on how this unit changed what you hear from the system.  Your electrical is not of a condition to make a fair comparison of the unit to good power.  Your electrical would provide a good comparison of the Ecoflow to insufficient power.  Maybe help people better understand it as an option if getting good power to the rack is not an option.   $6k for the Ecoflow does quite often get 4 dedicated circuits to the rack. 

It would be nice if you had a friend over so its not just you and do a real analysis.  Plug the amps into the wall and listen.  Plug the amps in the Ecoflow, listen.  Plug the front end in the wall and Eco, listen.  Plug everything into the Eco and wall and listen.  You own it.  No one else does.  What does it do to sound, compared to a stereo fed by a single 12 awg wire. You will be one data point. 

PurePower and PS Audio have loads of data point.  They are not nearly as consistent as Stromtank for a battery system.  PS Audio isn't really a battery either.  Its a regenerator.  Anyhow, it would shock me if a built to power residential devices  bettered purpose built audio device.  Can't say it would not happen.  But unusual it would be.  

Lastly I have seen a lot of audio devices that are supposed to make your system sound better and they do the exact opposite.   So "Audiophile" design does appear to have its limitations.  

One last point.  I never heard you talk about putting a shorting plug into the input of the amp and attaching to the speaker only.  Then turning the amp on.

If you still hear a hum from the speaker, there is an issue with the amp. 

If you hear the amp itself hum, that is generally the amplifiers power supply is being saturated by DC and the core of the transformer is vibrating.  Filters will generally stop DC from saturation of the core.  They almost never stop hum out the speaker. 

If you have a shorting plug in the input and hum out the speaker,  that is usually a poor design of the equipment where a power trace is to close to a ground trace and the power couples to the ground and puts voltage onto the ground destabilizing the whole circuit. 

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Um, OP here. Hasn't this discussion perhaps strayed a wee bit off-topic from "The Audio Impact of Solar Panels and Battery Backup?" 😏

 

Perhaps time to move this to its own thread, @The Computer Audiophile?

It seem right on topic.   A poster has said he likes a battery as it seems to have fixed an issue.  I am questioning his analysis process to determine if the battery system itself fixed the hum, or did something else.  I am then clearly asking for a through analysis of his EcoFlow battery power system to wall power with McIntosh amps.  You only use Headphones.  A far different system to power.  That is very much what people assessing what a battery want to know.   Can they power amplifiers with a Battery.   More people can afford to do this than put a Tesla Powerwall on their house.  Were talking $6K to $45K.  Still a battery. 

1 hour ago, UberK said:

@KingRex ... many things in there.

 

1. I have 2 amps - they both had this issue and used all different lengths and type of power cords to try and rectify it. Now they have Front Row Audience high end power cables. I also used all kinds of lengths - in and out of power conditioners, into the wall, etc. As there are 2 units - and only on the tube side - I cannot believe both are defective. So it is something in the power.

 

2. When I plug them into the EcoFlow, the hum disappeared. 

 

I just did it again. Removed XLR. Plugged directly into the EcoFlow. No hum. When it starts charging I get a bit. 

 

I have not gone down the regenerator path ..... this was focused on Niagara 5000, Puritan, etc.

 

What do you mean Romoved XLR.  XLR to me is a balanced interconnect.  Are you in Europe.  Is XLR what you call the male end of a power cord.

Power cords and their length have nothing to do with cleaning power or ground loops.  Not unless they are something like a Shunyata NR that has a filter built into it. 

Not to be rude or unkind or dismissive.  I am not questioning the hum issue you are experiencing at this time.  I am interested in what affect the EcoFlow has on the sound coming from your system.  When I recommend a filter to someone, I am looking for that filter to reduce noise on the utility line and allow dynamics to increase, bass to become tighter and more integrated with the mids and for the soundstage to expand in all directions.  I and I believe others want to know if a Ecoflow improves the sound from your system.  How would the Ecoflow compare to having an electrician come to your home and run new wire from your panel to your rack.  If it does not make your overall audio performance better and only gets rid of hum from an amp for some reason, then its not really an options for someone who is looking to improve the overall presentation of their stereo system.

When I lay out a design for someone such as yourself and advise 4 x #10 romex be run to the room bla bla bla.  The resultant end outcome is almost universally the noise floor is lower.  Bass is significantly tighter and faster.  Bass and midrange integrate better.  Sound stage is more solid.  Separation of instruments is more clear and defined.    I would like to know if you had time to really investigate what your system is voicing like, what your battery setup is doing.  My assumption is its more clean an quiet.  But I bet you lost some dynamics, the bass is a little soft and the soundstage is slightly compressed.  Its clean and quiet.  You might hear a little more detail.  But you gave up some.

Thanks in advance if you can make time to really listen and report back.

@austinpop

I know one other person that put a powerwall in and attached his audio to it.  They actually attached his whole house.  He has a Gryphon Diablo and Magico A3.  I don't know he heard anything.  In my mind, that is a good thing.  I need to circle back with him.  But his installation was one where they added a transfer switch so his grounding changed.  So did the entire power supply.  He has no way to go back and forth and listen.  Then he went and upgraded to S3.  So now his system is so radically different.   Its hard to tell the impact with amplifiers.  This person also does not futz over his system.  He turns it on, it plays music and he is happy.

I am personally more interested in stand alone battery systems.  That is what most audiophiles what to know about.  Can a battery better the wall.  The other group is people adding batteries to deal with power outage and they want to know will a battery and transfer switch damage the sound.  Or could it maybe be better.  The topic of a whole house powerwall system has not been pursued well.  For one its not easy to do.  If you reroute the service wires from the utiltiy stike out of the main panel and into a transfer switch, you have no way to do a comparison.  Whats done is done. you have to rely on memory.