T+A DAC 200

4 minutes ago, droffen said:

DAC 200 Firmware was available 2 months ago already. 

I think it was just a minor update.

improved control of the internal HDMI board (prevents sporadic loss of the HDMI module firmware under rare operation conditions)

23 hours ago, e.Latte said:

Regarding the DAC 200 Vu meters lighting. On one of the other T+A products called the Caruso, you can cycle the light coming from the bottom of the component. Would it be possible to add a color cycling mode to the DAC 200 Vu meters?

 

Also is it possible to only have the Vu light meters on, but not the OLED screen? Of course, these questions are hypothetical but I think it would be fun to have those features. I completely understand they don't enhance the sound in any way, but more of the personalization of the component. Just some friendly suggestions.

Thank you @e.Latte. Interesting suggestions.

Technically all that is possible of course.

We will discuss this and see what can be done in one of the future FW releses...

23 hours ago, e.Latte said:

Thank you droffen. I believe the DAC 200 has an update as well. V1.21. 

No need to do this update. It is relevant only for devices with HDMI module installed and it only affects the update process from version 1.0x  or 1.1x to 1,2x. If you are already on 1.20 then everything is ok.

If you intend to update from 1.0x or 1.1x to 1.2x, then don't use version 1.20 but use version 1.21.

Hi. I have a DAC200 with HDMI, and an Oppo player with a Vanity card inside. For my surprise, I discovered that when playing a SACD the Oppo is able to send pure DSD thru its original HDMI audio output to the T+A, and the dac is able to recognize it and play it as pure DSD. However, if I try to play a SACD and choose the SPDIF output (this time the one of the Vanity's) there is music, but with a noise similar to a pink noise. The screen of the dac shows "DOP" and the Oppo's say "SACD". So, does anybody check if the DAC200 accept DOP over coaxial? According to the manual, yes, but I was not able to do it. And I don't think that the issue is related with the vanity card, since previously to the T+A I used to have a Denafrips T2 that could do it without problems. My firmware is the original V1.0. Regards, Ricardo

23 minutes ago, ridom said:

Hi. I have a DAC200 with HDMI, and an Oppo player with a Vanity card inside. For my surprise, I discovered that when playing a SACD the Oppo is able to send pure DSD thru its original HDMI audio output to the T+A, and the dac is able to recognize it and play it as pure DSD. However, if I try to play a SACD and choose the SPDIF output (this time the one of the Vanity's) there is music, but with a noise similar to a pink noise. The screen of the dac shows "DOP" and the Oppo's say "SACD". So, does anybody check if the DAC200 accept DOP over coaxial? According to the manual, yes, but I was not able to do it. And I don't think that the issue is related with the vanity card, since previously to the T+A I used to have a Denafrips T2 that could do it without problems. My firmware is the original V1.0. Regards, Ricardo

spdif can only do up to dsd64 -- when you use dop, the overhead of dop makes it "look like" dsd128.  i'm sure someone more technical than me can provide additional details.

How does it sound? I have an Oppo and would love to try it. Does it sound better than a ripped file? 
thanks

2 hours ago, jcn3 said:

 

spdif can only do up to dsd64 -- when you use dop, the overhead of dop makes it "look like" dsd128.  i'm sure someone more technical than me can provide additional details.

Sorry, but I did not understand. SACD is DSD64. How can I get a DSD128 "overhead"?

1 hour ago, russellbobby said:

How does it sound? I have an Oppo and would love to try it. Does it sound better than a ripped file? 
thanks

IT sounds really good. It was an unexpected surprise. I did not know that the Oppo could send pure DSD thru HDMI

. . . 

42 minutes ago, ridom said:

Sorry, but I did not understand. SACD is DSD64. How can I get a DSD128 "overhead"?

ok, looked up the vanity board since i didn't know it.  it looks like it does what is necessary to send dsd64 over coax.  i'll retract my gibberish from above . . . 

3 minutes ago, jcn3 said:

 

since i'm not familiar with the vanity board, let me research that first . . . .

In fact it's the vanity, not the original oppo, the one which is sending dsd over dop. So, according to your post there would be no way of sending dsd over dop on coaxial, since it will be converted to 256 and this range is not accepted by an spdif input. I never heard of something like this, but it could be an explanation of why there is noise when playing. Thanks

21 hours ago, ridom said:

In fact it's the vanity, not the original oppo, the one which is sending dsd over dop. So, according to your post there would be no way of sending dsd over dop on coaxial, since it will be converted to 256 and this range is not accepted by an spdif input. I never heard of something like this, but it could be an explanation of why there is noise when playing. Thanks

i've come around to not being sure of your problem.  and i wasn't correct . . .

all dsd64 files are sent via dop over coax.  a dsd64 file requires a 176.4k pcm package via dop.  so your sacd files via the vanity should work.

here's more discussion on dop:  

On 8/12/2024 at 5:30 PM, ridom said:

For my surprise, I discovered that when playing a SACD the Oppo is able to send pure DSD thru its original HDMI audio output to the T+A, and the dac is able to recognize it and play it as pure DSD.

DSD over HDMI is the only "official" way to transmit DSD from a source device to a DAC. DSD over HDMI is well defined and specified and it complies with all legal requirements (like the required data encryption).

Many manufacturers try to avoid the horrid licensing and certification costs of the HDMI interface and they came up with some other ways of transmitting DSD like DoP or I2S. It must be saiid that these alternatives are not legal and there is no accepted industry standard for it. This is the reason why incompatibilities with DoP and I2S interfaces can occur.

In your case I would strongly recommend to use HDMI because both your OPPO and DAC_200 support it.

The DAC200 DoP playback was tested with a number of different source devices and it worked flawlessly. The vanity card however was not tested. I know of many DAC200 customers who use DoP without problems.

But as said above, DoP is often a problem because it is not an "official" format and there is no general and obligatory specification for it. The issue with the vanity card might come from the DoP marker format used by this card (there are different markers like 0xFA,0x05 or 0xAA which could be used). Do you have any knowledge about the Vanity's marker format ?

I will gladly check what the problem with the Vanity card is - but I would either need more information about this card and the exact format used by it, or even better I would need the Oppo+Vanity here in our lab to examine it.

2 hours ago, OE333 said:

 

 

DSD over HDMI is the only "official" way to transmit DSD from a source device to a DAC. DSD over HDMI is well defined and specified and it complies with all legal requirements (like the required data encryption).

 

Many manufacturers try to avoid the horrid licensing and certification costs of the HDMI interface and they came up with some other ways of transmitting DSD like DoP or I2S. It must be saiid that these alternatives are not legal and there is no accepted industry standard for it. This is the reason why incompatibilities with DoP and I2S interfaces can occur.

 

In your case I would strongly recommend to use HDMI because both your OPPO and DAC_200 support it.

 

 

The DAC200 DoP playback was tested with a number of different source devices and it worked flawlessly. The vanity card however was not tested. I know of many DAC200 customers who use DoP without problems.

 

But as said above, DoP is often a problem because it is not an "official" format and there is no general and obligatory specification for it. The issue with the vanity card might come from the DoP marker format used by this card (there are different markers like 0xFA,0x05 or 0xAA which could be used). Do you have any knowledge about the Vanity's marker format ?

 

I will gladly check what the problem with the Vanity card is - but I would either need more information about this card and the exact format used by it, or even better I would need the Oppo+Vanity here in our lab to examine it.

 

Thx for the thorough answer. I will check with the maker and get back to the forum. 

10 hours ago, OE333 said:

DSD over HDMI is the only "official" way to transmit DSD from a source device to a DAC. DSD over HDMI is well defined and specified and it complies with all legal requirements (like the required data encryption).

You mean DSD from SACD... DSD files such as DSF and DFF (DSDIFF) that you can buy as downloads are completely unencrypted and don't require anything special for sending to a DAC. (this applies also to DSD in WavPack)

SACD is just DSD64 anyway, and these days most new recordings are DSD128 or DSD256.

10 hours ago, OE333 said:

Many manufacturers try to avoid the horrid licensing and certification costs of the HDMI interface and they came up with some other ways of transmitting DSD like DoP or I2S. It must be saiid that these alternatives are not legal and there is no accepted industry standard for it.

Of course they are completely legal for any DSD downloads. Only not for SACD due to the SACD licensing terms.. But SACD and DSD are not same thing. Similar way, you can have DRM protected PCM (Blu-ray) and also completely non-DRM PCM, like a typical FLAC download.

So let's not mix format and the delivery container...

And DSD over USB Audio Class is nowadays pretty much defacto industry standard. DoP is also accepted industry standard.

10 hours ago, OE333 said:

But as said above, DoP is often a problem because it is not an "official" format and there is no general and obligatory specification for it.

There is an official specification document for it though.

10 hours ago, OE333 said:

The issue with the vanity card might come from the DoP marker format used by this card (there are different markers like 0xFA,0x05 or 0xAA which could be used). Do you have any knowledge about the Vanity's marker format ?

0xAA is old and deprecated and nobody should be using it because when incorrectly interpreted as PCM it generates DC offset.

The official documentation also includes the dual-wire DoP which uses different markers and is also supported for example by HQPlayer. This allows transmitting DSD128 over 4 channels of 176.4k PCM (dual-AES), which is very handy for example with the TC Dice Firewire chipset that can do 16 channels of 176.4k PCM, but not higher than 192k rates. Or with AES/EBU links, since there are several multi-channel AES interfaces around.

I will also take the opportunity to talk about my "specific use case scenario", which might also be relevant to others pursuing what I was/am pursuing.

I bought the HDMI module for my T+A DAC200, so that I could be able to play SACD and Blu-Ray and benefit from the quality of the DAC200 capabilities. I did have another need (which must be shared by most, although some might not even be aware of it) though, which was parametric equalization. In order to achieve this, the standard Blu-Ray player would not suffice, as they come with no equalization, as far as I'm aware of.

So, my only solution was to buy an external Blu-Ray drive and connect it to my PC, and then apply equalization via PC. This, in turn, made me not being able to play SACD anymore, as there are no external Blu-Ray drives capable of playing SACD. Down the rabbit hole, here we go... I bought another Blu-Ray player which will be used to rip my SACD collection, and I will then play it (as file) via PC only. Although I didn't end up with the easiest solution, as in "all in one", I can live with it.

Now, my question is regarding the best way to output audio via the PC HDMI card. For you to be able to use equalization, you have to Enable Audio Enhancements on Windows.

And then, under Output settings, you can choose up to 24 bit 192 Hz, at least, that's what I get from my Video Card (I think). The device I have to configure is the "TV" which is connected via the HDMI OUT (ARC) of the DAC200, and the PC is connected to one of DAC200's HDMI inputs.

If I put a Blu-Ray disc playing, what appears is the DAC display is 192 Hz 24 bit, the same if I play a Youtube video, meaning, that output format is fixed. At least for Blu-Ray concerts, I would like to be able to play bitstream, if possible, but I can't find out how to do it. When I get bitstream to appear on DAC200's display, I get no sound.

I think I might be doing something wrong here, so I would appreciate you guys' input.

And on another note, and this is not HDMI related, do any of you guys notice some sort of distortion on the (mid/highs) when passing the -18db mark? I can't guarantee this for sure, as I have no way to do a back to back test, but I'm pretty certain that this never happened with my previous DAC/Preamp, the Benchmark DAC3 L.

My power amplifier is a Benchmark ABH2, and it has 3 sensitivity settings. This happened with the lowest setting, meaning, the one that outputs less sound for the same db. The solution I found was to set the amplifier in the highest gain setting, and now at -20db , which is already pretty loud (considerably louder than the -16db in the lowest gain setting), I can confirm that I hear no distortion. So, although the "problem is solved", I was wondering if anyone had come across with similar, or not.

Thanks!

24 minutes ago, citro said:

At least for Blu-Ray concerts, I would like to be able to play bitstream, if possible, but I can't find out how to do it. When I get bitstream to appear on DAC200's display, I get no sound.

It should be sending some undecoded raw audio format to DAC 200, likely something which the DAC 200 doesn't know how to decode. Such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio. (TrueHD is MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing), same as DVD-Audio used, from the same guys who created MQA)

11 hours ago, Miska said:

You mean DSD from SACD... DSD files such as DSF and DFF (DSDIFF) that you can buy as downloads are completely unencrypted and don't require anything special for sending to a DAC. (this applies also to DSD in WavPack)

 

Yes, I was referring to DSD from SACD, as this is what the original question was about.

But of course you are right about DSF/DFF downloads and that these are not encrypted - thank you for your hint.

Just added a Teac 701t transport to the system. Hate to say but quite a step up from my Melco>EtherRegen>Dac 200 setup. Great tone and black background. I knew it had a chance when hearing my Oppo as a transport but this is a whole another level. 
Just Redbook but much better than ripped DSD files or upconverted  DSD files thru Roon. The DAC 200 PCM decoding is pretty damn good. 

This has been a fascinating read. I joined this site so i could participate in this forum as a DAC 200 owner. I will confess there was much I didn’t understand, but I appreciated the content. I’d like to pose a few questions. A bit of history first. I purchased the DAC 200 last summer after a lengthy audition against my then DAC - the Auralic Vega G2.1 I stream Qobuz and local files via an Auralic Aries G2.0.  I had purchased the Auralic Sirius G2.1 processor the previous summer and was hoping to get to fewer boxes. I originally demoed the DAC 200 w/o the Sirius processor and was feeding it mostly PCM files via Qobuz. It was marginally better than the Vega - a bit more dynamic, but really just different, not better. I was going to return it but decided to try it w/ the Sirius processor in place feeding it DSD 512. Much better results and an easy decision to purchase. It was the first DAC that was significantly better than what I was using (and the Vega was as good or better than a number of others I had auditioned).

My current path is Auralic Aries G2=>Auralic Sirius G2.1=>T+A DAC 200 (USB input)=>T+A PA 3100 HV=>Sonus Faber Serafina speakers.  

My questions for the more experienced of you here:

1) given that I’m converting to DSD 512 with a dedicated processor, do you think I’m getting comparable results to using HQPlayer? What i have is certainly is much easier to manage and I don’t like tinkering much on a computer any more than I have to.

2) do any of you have experience with the SD 3100 HV? I’m tempted to go upstream further but doing so would (I think) require i maintain the Aries (or something similar) and the Sirius to feed the SD 3100 DSD as it apparently also performs better in that path as well. But then i would be bypassing the internal streaming architecture built into the SD 3100. Any thoughts on if this is something I should pursue? 

I welcome any feedback.

Best,

Hello community,

I'm toying with the idea of adding the MP 200 to my DAC 200. I have a few questions:
I also use the HQplayer directly with my streamer via the USB out. This allows CD's and radio to be output directly via the DAC 200 in DSD. For more information, see https://community.roonlabs.com/t/using-any-audio-source-with-hqplayer-spotify-amazon-apple-music-youtube-music-deezer-soundcloud-2023/244358/1030
As far as I have seen, the MP 200 also has a USB-Out (called USB sys on the MP 200) - is that correct? I could then use this output with the HQplayer.
If I now connect the MP 200 to the DAC 200 via the coax digital out (fast PCM connection so that I don't always have to start the HQplayer), what disadvantages would I have? As far as I understand it, the MP 200 also communicates with the DAC 200 via the USB-sys.

Rumor has it that the T+A MP 200 will soon be getting a new streaming client. Is it coming? What would change from the current version?

Best regards

FZ

2 hours ago, FZ said:

As far as I have seen, the MP 200 also has a USB-Out (called USB sys on the MP 200) - is that correct? I could then use this output with the HQplayer.

According to manual this is not possible, USB Sys can only be used together with DAC200 or HA200

Hello droffen,
thanks for the info. Hmmm, that's bad news. So the USB sys output is exclusively for the connection to the DAC 200? What a pity! Then the MP 200 makes no sense for me.

Best regards

FZ

3 hours ago, FZ said:

Hello droffen,
thanks for the info. Hmmm, that's bad news. So the USB sys output is exclusively for the connection to the DAC 200? What a pity! Then the MP 200 makes no sense for me.

Best regards

FZ

With the coming new streamer generation the USB-SYS output of the MP200 might possibly be used as a general audio out. This could then be connected not only to DAC/HA200 but also to other devices instead.

But to give a definitive answer we will have to wait for the new client...

On 10/1/2024 at 3:05 PM, OE333 said:

 

With the coming new streamer generation the USB-SYS output of the MP200 might possibly be used as a general audio out. This could then be connected not only to DAC/HA200 but also to other devices instead.

But to give a definitive answer we will have to wait for the new client...

Can’t wait for G3 version for the MP200