Temporal_Dissident

A few notes on the listening bar / Kissa conversation and to this thread in particular.... Disclaimer: I'm a sh!tty forum guy. Not regular at all. But I do love this site. I've visited it more than any other audio forum and learned a terrific amount about audio here. I know I'm wading into a conversation I have not been very active in. Poking around today I searched "Kissa" and found this thread. I am surprised there has not been more conversation about this growing trend on this forum. Over the past 3 years, I've dived deeply into this topic. Activities include: Starting a Google Map to track the new establishments (outside of Japan) identifying as "Hifi" or "Listening Bars": US / CAN Listening Bars International (excl. Japan) Listening Bars Personally visited many of these establishments in the US (>12 and counting), Japan (14), and Europe (4) Developed a concept for a new HiFI Lounge in Birmingham, AL (opens Spring 2025) Started a podcast to interview founders of modern listening bars and record their stories. This is more work than I thought. Got a few great interviews in the can, but need to finish post-production and publish them. Established Instragram site (High Dive BHM) to chronical these adventures I won't claim to be an expert and acknowledge that this subject is going to attract many diverse opinions, but I would like to share a few observations and opinions of my own, and attempt to refute some of the most common negative arguments I've heard... OP: Why not more digital? Plenty of Listening Bars (in and out of Japan) play digital music. I've yet to encounter one that incorporates what I'd call a state-of-the-art digital server type system, but plenty play CDs (esp. in Japan). It is early days. This is a growth opportunity. No doubt, there is an emphasis on vinyl, especially in the US. Personally, I think there are several factors: In Japan, the vast majority of Kissa are operated by older proprieters. Like 60-80 years old. You see plenty of CDs, but I think this generation is just not hip to digital music and streaming. (I think this is true even among younger Japanese,...there is a very strong loyalty to physical media. Almost every establishment I found with a system [clothing boutique, barber, etc] has a CD collection or a turntable). In the US, many of the founders of new listening bars have a background as DJs or vinyl collectors (e.g. - Dante's HiFi, Goldline, etc.). Many are coming out of dance culture where vinyl remains central. I seems to me that DJs are the tribe in the US that has been most receptive - initially - to this concept of the HiFi Bar. It is a natural extension of what they do: Curate and play music for the public. An open dance floor is one environment for this. A lounge with seating is another. It is natural that this crowd is championing the trend. God bless them for it. Vinyl is part of "the show." I think we all get this. A huge attraction with vinyl is simply the physicality of it. Handling the media, watching the turntable spin, etc. If this is enjoyable for anyone in a private, home listening room, that enjoyment is only compounded in a public listening space. It doesn't matter. Many on this forum (and elsewhere) can get lost on in the "analog vs. digital" debate. Do an A/B test in your very controlled home listening room, or with headphones, and you will hear a difference. Great. But for these listening bars, that is NOT a fair frame of referance. The accurate referance for comparison with these HiFi Bars is the other bar down the street that has a Sonos speaker mounted behind the HVAC duct in the ceiling. In 2024 America, if you install a proper pair of large speakers with correct amplification and some acoustic treatment,...music is going to sound better than at 99% of other bars/restaurants. But it is still a difficult listening environment (lots of endemic noise, no single listening position, etc.). The marginal difference in SQ between analog and digital simply is not meaningful in this context. "This is all a superficial trend for young, hipsters"......Says who? And has the person making that argument and generalization actually visited any of these places? Or are they being cynical about what they see online? Based on my experience, these establishments are driven by people who care deeply about music and sound,...and are frustrated by how acoustically-hostile modern bars/restaurants have become. As with ANY trend, there is a spectrum of integrity. You have operators who are pursuing this in a very honest, authentic way (see: Eavesdrop, Longplay SD, etc.) and there are others who are simply plopping a turntable at the end of a bar, hoping to capitalize on a new trend. I am CERTAIN that this trend will grow and get co-opted by players who don't really respect it. (See Gordon Ramsey's mention of Kissa at his new place in Miami,...which seems to have NOTHING to do with music or HiFi.) It is a big world and a big industry. Let's not through the baby out with the bathwater. "These new, Western places are not authentic to the concept of Japanese Jazz Kissa, therefore they are not authentic." This is an incredibly narrow and unimaginative arguement. Sometimes this comes from people who are operating Kissa-esqe listening spaces and are trying to sh!t on the competition. From others it is born from a lack of actual experience with these places. My perspective: there will never be a "Jazz Kissa" outside of Japan because the concept is deeply, inherently Japanese. It is actually inauthentic and a little cheesy to loyally replicate that in the US. But the basic idea of a bar, coffeeshop, or restaurant with great acoustics, a HiFi system, and intentional music curation is something that the rest of the world can enjoy. What my experience and research has shown me is that these bones of the Kissa concept can be applied in other cultures and other types of establishments. (That experimentation is also happening in Japan, by the way.) Western establishments should neither appropriate the Japanese Kissa concept too loyally, nor should they fetishize it as some unimpeachable, fragile thing that can not be experimented with or riffed upon. My favorite places are the ones that take the essence of the HiFi listening experience and apply is creatively to a space that reflects its local context (again: Eavesdrop, Longplay SD, etc.),...these places are thoroughly American and individual and have little to do with Japanese Jazz Kissa. "It isn't HiFi..." Let's state this plainly: Any of us can take a room in our house with a single listening position and very controllable noise situation and build a HiFi system that is going to sound better than a system in public food and beverage establishment. No question. But you know what that room in your house does not have? Friends, a kitchen, a bartender, or the buzz of the neighborhood. Your listening room does not have community or allow for the opportunity for a group of strangers to experience something collectively. The home listening room is NOT the correct yardstick to measure the sound-quality in a public room with 20/40/80 people. So, what is the correct yardstick? I argue that it should be all of the other bars/restaurants in the country....which are sonically atrocious. By comparison, these new listening lounges can absolutely be HiFi. Most of them have fantastic sound systems which are setup thoughfully. Personally, I love going to a restaurant or a bar. I hate how noisy they are. Show me one with a significantly lower noise level and with great music playing over a HiFi system. Sign me up. If massive improvement in sound is not perfect enough for you,....I guess you can stay home with your headphones. What's Next? Where is this all going? Who knows? I'll offer my prediction: more of these places are opening every month. I think we are still in the early stages of an adoption curve. We are living in a period of growth and experimentation. At some point, it will peak, as all consumer trends do. (I fully expect to walk into the lobby bar of an airport Marriott and find a pair of tweed speakers behind the bar and a glowing [fake] tube amp. It will probably still be streaming Pandora, but they will have co-opted the interior design look!) There will be plenty of "noise" obscuring the "signal" in this trend. But there will also be incredible new places. AT A MINIMUM,...it will all amount to a trend in the food & beverage industry that is centering and celebrating music and sound. It will be a response to how acoustics have been totally neglected by the F&B industry forever; an acknowledgement that patrons appreciate sound as much as they appreciate lighting, seating, food, service, etc. If this influences restaurant sound quality one iota, it will be a positive, wonderful thing. ...BUT IT MAY BE MORE. This trend may peak and crash and burn and simply be a passing fad. But it may also be the emergence of something new. Americans love to "go out" to listen to music. That means listening to a live band while standing or seated at a concert...staring at a stage; or it may mean dancing to a "live" DJ who is manipulating recorded music. In each of those contexts, sound quality is given great consideration. Is it really so hard to imagine that we may develop another way to enjoy music in public? That new venues may emerge which present expertly curated recorded music through an excellent sound system and in an environment where it is very comfortable to sit, relax, enjoy a drink, and even (egad!) talk to friends? Where are the audiophiles? Why are audiophiles so absent from this conversation? We've seen pretty solid coverage from the traditional press: Washington Post Wall Street Journal New York Times As I've studied this movement over the past several years, I've been surprised to see almost zero aknowledgement from the traditional audiophile press. (Exception: Stereophile Article about ISC NYC). I don't know, but I fear that many audiophiles are huddling in their home listening rooms, focusing on a hobby that, at times, seems to be more about electrical engineering than about music. Apologies if that take is too cynical. But I can't help feeling this way sometimes, especially when I look at the magazines and forums. It is about hardware fetishization in these private, optimized settings,...never about sound quality in our culture or "out in the world." We live in an interesting time. The source has gotten much better and the playback systems have gotten much worse. While The source (modern digital) has evolved into a "Celestial Jukebox" in our pockets where we can listen to anything, anywhere, anytime, almost for free. But the "average" playback system has gotten worse and worse with each passing decade. The average American system has devolved from vinyl/tubes/floor-standing speakers,...to CDs/Integrated Amps/Bookshelfs,...to some small bluetooth speaker (blame the predictable pattern of any product development,...capitalism pushes for cheaper, faster, easier,....not better). I can't help but think that music and sound quality in our modern world would be so much better if audiophiles took more of a leadership / "johnny appleseed" position in our culture and worked to elevate the average. This is what I see founders of these listening bars doing, and they deserve to be supported, encouraged, and celebrated. Your corner bar is going to sound much better in the future. How is that not a GREAT thing!? But from the audiophile crowd, the response is mainly skepticism, cynicism, dismissal,....or silence. I don't get it. We are making this hobby way to narrow. That's my spiel for today. My request is two-fold: Have an open mind and root for success. Get beyond the internet chatter and go visit some of these listening bars. Learn what they are trying to do. Understand that they are going to be VERY different on a Tuesday afternoon vs. a Friday night. Have an open mind. Not all listening is critical listening. How does is compare to a traditional bar? Download and Use the SoundPrint App. They are allies in a fight for a quieter world. I really love the mission of this app. It deserves support and usage. Maybe if we all scream together, these restaurant owners will hear us and try to become more quiet.

Great update. A few questions: 1. Apple via BlueSound? BlueOS still lacks native support for Apple Music, correct? You have to play from your iOS device, using Airplay? 2. Atmos You mention the capabilities of the PowerNode, but not the speaker config. Are you saying you want to play Atmos on what is essentially a 2.0 system? Or you want the capability so you can add more speakers? 3. Sub Have you ever wanted a sub? One of those buried, mushroom types? I know you want an excuse to do more digging ;-/

Chris, On behalf of the International Brotherhood of Groovy Motherfcukers, I’d like to welcome you into the ranks of Deadheads! After my formative, pre-teen years of listening to Duran Duran, the Stray Cats, J Giles Band, the Doors, Led Zeppelin, The Who, and RUSH,… I discovered the Dead and tumbled deeply down a rabbit hole from which I have yet to emerge. It was through the Dead that I discovered classic Bakersfield Country, Bluegrass, Buddy Holly, Django Reinhardt, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, World music, and much more. Generally, Deadheads have extremely big and open ears (as Miles Davis attested in his autobiography). As a curious and ravenous music fan, I get uncomfortable whenever I encounter music that is popular, but I don’t “get.” Like a food I don’t like, I am drawn to consume it until I either like it, or can at least understand its appeal. It can be difficult when people I respect quickly dismiss the Grateful Dead. I reflexively want to turn them on, but it is sort of a hopeless effort. Within the universe of music, they are an outlier in many ways. They have a wildly diverse catalogue, and a loose back-beat and Dixieland-like style of collective improvisation that is very unusual within the context of rock ‘n’ roll. I get that they are not that accessible. Paradoxically, you almost have to become familiar with their music before you can really get full enjoyment out of it. As with jazz, much of the music‘s magic is in the live performances; listening to how the same song can take on a different feels on different nights, and hearing the musical conversations between band members as they lightly improvise over a familiar tune. You are not going to hear that unless you know the songs. An exercise for the Dead-curious: Pick your favorite Dead tune and head over to the Headyversion website, where fans upvote their favorite live versions of Dead songs. Listen to the top five versions, hopefully spread across multiple decades. Listen to the players. Listen to how they react to each other and how they are all playing the song, but none of them are actually playing at straight. There are many entry-points into the Dead. There are also many obstacles. Their popularity seems to be increasing yearly, especially with young people. The punks and indie rockers I love, but were dismissive of the Dead early in their careers, are now covering their songs. (I credit Sirius/XM for maintaining their popularity during the decade after Garcia’s death,…before their popularity began to climb again.) They are as responsible for creating the Americana genre as any band. For audiophiles, the history is rich. No other band contributed more to the improvement of live concert sound (McIntosh>JBL,…nurturing new brands like Mark Levinson, Meyer Sound, and Parasound). No other fanbase was as immersed in “hifi” than the Dead’s Taper corps. So,…what’s my point? Just to say welcome and thanks. Welcome to the fun world that is the Grateful Dead’s music and thanks for giving them their well-deserved props. I think Deadheads like me do not want to proselytize, but we love it when someone we respect walks into the party.

In terms of the Grateful Dead’s harmonies, “Attics of My Life“ will always be the high watermark for me. The Atmos version is wonderful. With a little digging, you can find the isolated vocal tracks which completely stand up on their own. I think either Crosby or Nash said something like, “they couldn’t quite sing as good as we could, and we couldn’t quite play as well as they could.” There was tremendous mutual respect between the two groups. “Teach Your Children“ is the most widely heard Jerry Garcia track in existence, with his pedal steel providing a perfect, counter-punctual “4th voice“ to the song. And then, of course, David Crosby’s fantastic solo album “If I Could Only Remember my Name…“ heavily features Garcia, Lesh, and other members of the band. Anyone is interested in going deeper on the connection between these two groups should check out this episode of the wonderful Deadcast podcast.

And here it is… The moment when computer audio goes from what I like thinking about (audio hardware) to what I dislike thinking about (computer software)…ha! But thank you for the reply. You are directing me towards the issues I need to better understand. I am going to take the time to learn how Windows handles audio. I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve never bothered with it. (In fairness to myself, I’ve never really been in a situation where I can listen seriously or intently at a desk.) I am going to avoid using an analog mixer if possible. I think a secondary speaker system for lower priority sounds is my preference. Question: Can Windows run WASAPI shared and exclusive modes simultaneously? In other words, could JRiver be set to Exclusive mode for Device A (USB DAC) while a web browser, computer sounds, etc use Shared mode for Device B (a USB soundbar)? Or, is the choice between Shared and Exclusive a general setting that applies to all apps?

Many thanks for the thoughtful reply. I agree that I need a dual system so I can simultaneously play music from other sources (eg - vinyl) and hear the computer sounds through a secondary system. Maybe a USB sound bar. Easy enough. What I need to learn about is windows capabilities to “route” sound from different applications to different devices. I will check out Benchmark. I’ve spent the last few days sort of diving into Schiit Freya+ and Yggdrasil+. thanks again

Help me design a new system? (Disclaimers: This is about a “desktop” system, by which I mean a system I listen to while sitting at my desk, usually staring at a computer screen. I understand the inherent limitations. Let's skip the question about whether or not this is “audiophile” if that bothers anyone!) My Challenge: This is an emergency. I've relocated offices and have spent last few weeks in an empty space, alone, with no music. It is lonely and depressing. Background: I unboxed remnants on a previous system and patched it together…. Desktop PC, USB Out > ELAC DDP-2 > Genelec 6010A (powered speakers) + Genelec 5040A Immediate Problems: The ELAC DDP-2 struggles to lock onto the USB signal. It worked on day, then didn't. I can’t get Bluetooth to pair and find no documentation about how to do it online. In a former system, I had persistent issues with it locking onto Roon and requiring a power cycle anytime I wanted to switch inputs. I am in contact with ELAC, but I really don’t think this unit is for me. (I’ll take this opportunity to say that my pair of ELAC Navis powered speakers are some of the favorites I’ve ever owned. I’ve also been very happy with a pair of Adante AS-61). My Genelec 6010A’s and 5040 are old and have a finnicky RCA jack. I've loved these little powered monitors in previous offices. Building a New System: The only thing that is lifting my spirits is the idea of building a new system! My new career is related/adjacent to the music business and I am in a position to benefit from a much more capable system. I want to optimize sound quality. Obviously. Sources: Desktop PC (12th Gen i9-12900K 3.19GHz w/ 64GB RAM running Windows 10 Pro). I have a huge, hires digital collection, but have honestly done much more streaming these past few years. New situation will enable me to re-discover my local collection and I am interested in learning how to make it sounds as good as possible. Endemic computer sounds (alerts, etc.) Audio from the web Streaming services (Tidal, Qobuz, iTunes) JRiver Turntable (Technics SL-1200 > Parasound JC 3 Jr.) It's fine. CD (Oppo BDP-105D) Speakers/Amp: Two mains will live on my desk; perhaps on short stands to elevate above my reflective desk surface. Sub beneath my desk. This is near-field listening at 36". I'd like to do another 2.1 system and lean toward active, but I am open to other options. Looking at Genelec 8030C(2) + 7050C (balanced inputs) Wilson Tunetots are another option that's been floated (if I went that route, I may pair them with my Luxman L-590AXmkII 30W class-A integrated.) Pre-Amp:TBD DAC:TBD Setup: I plan for all of this to live in a short, studio equipment rack that sits next to my desk. Room: I am finally in a situation where I can really treat my office correctly. There will be plenty of absorption and diffusion. Questions: Scenario: sitting at your desk, listening to source other than your PC (e.g. - CD or turntable), but I still what to hear computer System Sounds (e.g. - alerts, beeps, boops), web videos, Zoom calls? What is the best way to handle? I know the preamp can't mix 2 sources (e.g. - turntable + PC), so it depends in routing these computer sounds to a secondary speaker? Is there a way to avoid having to do that manually,...continuously? For instance, can I configure PC to always route all System Sounds and Zoom audio to a computer speaker connected directly to the PC audio-out,...but route all sounds from JRiver, TIDAL app, iTunes, etc to the outboard DAC via USB? A high-quality, "dumb" DAC? My hope is to find a great DAC, separate or integrated into a pre-amp, which requires zero attention. I do not want to think about the settingsor filters on an ongoing basis. What I really do not want to do is power cycle it and futz with the inputs everyday when I sit down at my computer. (Maybe they are all like that and my experience with the DDP-2 sort of soured me?) DAC/Pre & Other Recommendations? My dream is to walk in, power up my PC, flip on a pre-amp, and go. I will use vinyl/CD weekly, but not daily. It feels like the big questions here are around the DAC and Preamp,...but I welcome any input. Thanks in advance....

Sort of the dumb admin question here, but I am not a heavy forum user and I’m not quite sure which topic to post this under? Seeking advice on a new desktop system,…as in the system I use seared at my desktop workstation. Many more details to add, but where within AS.com should I post this…?

Not sure this will post to article comments. … I stand by my frustration with your review. The essence of bruce bosler’s criticism is that you are presenting a “review” of a mix without making the effort necessary to experience it as it was intended to be presented. Shame on Dolby for having a listening event in this type of space. (Perhaps this was the easiest place for a marketing dept to host a PR event?) Disrespectful to the band and the music (and not great for the Dolby brand, either). I’ve never listened to Atmos music in a large theater. I imagine that a large room exaggerates the spatial effect of Atmos in a way that would be very disorienting for music. It The gunshot percussion and “giant” Wilson brothers doesn’t sound appealing at all. Movie sound producers mix specifically for that environment. But that is NOT the type of room Martin remixed Pet Sounds in, or for, and that is not the type of room that Atmos music fans will listen in. Another terrible way to evaluate an Atmos mix? Headphones. A 7.1 system is not much better,…(because these aren’t Atmos-enabled systems). In my parlance, all are examples of “half broken” test or review conditions. If you want to review Atmos mixes, use an Atmos system in an appropriate space. Is the “juice” of an immersive experience worth the “squeeze” of added investment and effort? That is every individual’s call, and that cost/benefit question also haunts almost every decision in our HiFi hobby. But neither of these questions constitutes an argument for reviewing Atmos mixes on non-Atmos systems or in movie theaters. There are other arguments embedding in the comments above about how “most people will experience Atmos” (ie - on a stereo system ) and how Atmos gets “abused” in mixes. Fine. Legitimate questions to discuss. But again, neither validates what you are implying, which is essentially that “you don’t really need to listen to an Atmos mix on an Atmos enabled system or in a proper room in order to write a professional review about it…” In your comments, you write “I'd have to set up a full Atmos system and report what I heard. I'm just not going to do that.” Then don’t do Atmos reviews! No problem. Unless you are willing to give the time and effort demanded to experience Atmos as intended, you should refrain from reviewing it. Continuing to opine on it while not making that effort seems like a backhanded way to be dismissive of the technology.

Great review, Chris. My copy delivers soon and I plan to do a listening party in the lounge we are building on the JBL Synthesis 7.2.6 system. We may even do the Wizard of Oz thing on projection screen, just for laughs.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/roger-waters-russia-united-nations-ukraine-1234675670/ No, Roger. Please, mate. You are losing the plot.

Look at everything else they make you buy just to get Atmos!? In related news, Waters/Gilmore are at it again… https://www.newsweek.com/david-gilmour-roger-waters-pink-floyd-polly-samson-what-said-feud-twitter-tweets-1779392 sheesh!

I actually have a pair of these in my office. They are fantastic. Some of my favorite speakers. The only reason I don’t go this route for this new system… 1. Rear port may not do well on this shallow shelf 2. I have a general aversion against buying a second set of anything I already own. It feels like a missed opportunity to explore something new!

I have not. At this point it is powering a pair of OJAS Artbook Shelf speakers with horn modification (sensitivity 96db). They sound great, especially backed by a pair of REL S/510’s. The Yvette’s are in a different location. That test will come.

Having a blast with my Luxman L-590AXII. 30 watts class A. Gets warm, but sounds great. This is an integrated amp. Maybe not what you are looking for. Best Class A experience I’ve had: Gryphon Audio 100w Class A stereo amp. Not sure which model. Beautiful.