feelingears

"Tuning your network..." love it, and hate it! 😃 I appreciate this conversation if only because it parallels my current situation, attempting to "regain" "lost" sound quality due to an unexpected change in gear that results in potential changes in the signal path that in turn result in additional component, cabling, power supply, and ultimately financial choices... This is indeed a bit frustrating, less because I feel the need to have the best gear, but that I had a sound I had tuned and cultivated carefully w/ complimentary gear selection, and now I've lost that fine balance. For myself, I don't think it's fair to expect manufacturers to account for all configuration possibilities when those are infinite just in the network dimension alone, let alone additional dimensions such as the subjective values people favor in their reproduced sound. So again I appreciate this thread in part because it helps me understand where the most leverage is in digital choices/signal path, and thus where I want to focus my effort and my $$$ considering I need to reestablish my sonic north star. Time to push off and sail to a different shore, I guess, but that's my point: The quality of reproduced digital sound is now very high for very low spend. So beware the tail wagging the dog! The diminishing returns curve is very steep and rises very high, very very fast. The way I've navigated this is by knowing what I'm seeking to change, and only buying what is needed to gain a quality without sacrificing or trading off another essential quality. If the XACT is within your capabilities - congrats and enjoy the music! I'll be trying to figure out if JPlay is the closest I'll get. (And JPlay is outstanding to my ear.) First world problems - hope this helps and good luck y'allz!

Found the hard drive recs: https://ask.aurender.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045605693-SSD-HDD-Recommendations-Installation-Guide Interestingly, Conductor is v4 now and has it's own URL (but only found via dedicated search, vs. obvious links from the KB): https://aurender.com/home/conductor_v4/

@JoeWhip This hobby is weirdly subjective and personal, but that's what makes the exploration fun. I appreciate your article prompting me to try the MiB. So, after much burn-in (over a week*, 24x7), listening, and adjusting and listening more, I agree that MiB. I have some nature recordings that truly have a lifelike sense of being outdoors in a forest when heard over MiB in my system. But...all MiB's superior things fall short without dynamics, and in my speaker system, the dynamics went "mellow," which turns out to be a deal killer for me. The MiB dynamics are just a touch too flat for (many of) my musical taste/recordings. Despite the extra resolution and beautiful high end of the treble (I will miss that extra bit of sparkle/openness), I kept wanting to turn up the volume to hear dynamics. With LiM, I am happy wherever the volume is, even at low levels such as with nighttime listening. I put the old LiM boards back in (as you noted), and ahhh....immediately I could hear what I'd been missing: there's the splash of the cymbals, the crash, the thump, the pluck...things MiB smooths over a touch too much for me. Mi indeed B but for me, LiM music, more emotion, more energy. "Flavors," as Stoddard and company say. Anyway, people should try this for themselves. This is a great reference point of what digital can sound like, so no regrets and lots learned. Thanks again, Joe! *Yeah, over a week - it was truly needed because the bass was simply wrong for the first five days. My new-from-factory speakers were that way too, way back when.

Hi, @AurenderAmerica - Sorry if this question has been answered elsewhere, I couldn't find an answer based on my generic search: I have a new-to-me N150, and it came with music pre-loaded. Of course, I want to add and remove music on the N150's internal drive. At the moment, I have three questions I've not found the answers to: I can access the folders on the N150 via my Mac, and I see some albums and songs that do not appear in the iOS Conductor app. I added some albums (folder-based, meaning the folder holds all of the album's related music and album art files) and again some albums appear, some do not. But Any suggestions on how to resolve what is going on? Is it metadata related? Some albums are at the folder (artist) level and some albums show up as the artist (at the folder level other artists are represented at). There's also a folder for "Various" and again, some bands are within this folder but they "should be" at the artist level of organization, I think. Maybe I have a misconception of how to organize music on the server? Finally, what kind of internal SSD is recommended for an N150? NVMe SSD, or other? Does Aurender Conductor tell me what type is installed? Thank you, Laurence

You pay for the tasting spoon, and the shipping on that too! I am a little wary of my upgrade to MiB from LiM, but hopeful it's all Joe suggests it is in terms of being better than LiM overall (greater than the sum of the parts). I hope MiB retains most all of LiM's dynamic and musical qualities, but I've read several owner impressions that kept me from doing this earlier... And, the Holo Cyan 2 seems also to be a contender for my taste in sound; hope to try that one too, eventually. Apropos of nothing here, my LiM is en route to Schiit. For fun, I replaced the Yggy LiM with a long unused Halide USB DAC (from 2014, I think) to hold me over because it's very simply plug and play. I have a smaller Schiit DAC, the Modius, in another system but it's not so simply plug and play. And... The Halide DAC is actually pretty damn good, perhaps shockingly good. Bass is definitely looser, a bit out of control, and things are a bit congested, especially for the first hour or so from a cold start, but warmed up it is surprisingly listenable and balanced. The bass does not slam at all (one of Yggy's strong suits) even w/ a sub, so there's that, but the overall sound and presentation is pleasing at least. I might be misremembering but Stereophile rated it A or B way back then, I think. Anyway, Yggy's bass slam and some of the other intangible subjectives it delivers will be very welcome back.

Thanks for posting @yyz as I came here to learn about others' impressions of the MiB. I have been thinking about the Holo Cyan 2 as I have heard how great the Denafrips Pontus sounds in my own system, but for me and my taste, LiM won out over Pontus as well as the Yggy A2 version I owned at the time, and which I believe became "OG" terminology and thus superseded the name A2 in their marketing. Who says FUD isn't a Schiit strategy? I'm kidding, sort of. So I got a LiM upgrade and have been VERY happy. Now you make me want to put my A2 board back in my original Yggy chassis (Olsher or someone at TAS reported the upgraded chassis as better, damn him) and get a MiB to compare. But I mainly am posting here to say that there are some sonic things that words just don't do justice and take too long to explain fairly, so I'm tired of trying, and will simply say and echo that as Chris noted in his original LiM shoot out review, I found the presentation of the LiM to be more "properly" balanced than my A2/OG. I note Chris sort of(?) notes his preference for LiM vs MiB still in a comment up above, but @The Computer Audiophile were you referring to the latest MiB with the latest design/chips/whatevs? I believe the original MiB you heard in the original intro of flavors was redesigned and re-released... (See what I mean about FUD, I can't even be sure I'm keeping up w/ their flavors anymore! Pretty soon it'll be 31 flavors.) And so is what you heard what I will hear? Or will the MiB appeal as Chris notes in his comment above, but not enough to beat the LiM as it has for @JoeWhip? Anyway, I enjoyed the A2 but writing this is my unconscious telling my conscious to just get the MiB upgrade based on the review here, and maybe also the Holo Cyan 2 and go from there. Thanks, JoeWhip! And also just say in case anyone cares to try: I find my Schiit DACs over the years to benefit greatly from Shunyata Delta (or better) XC power cables.

Speculation: One could imagine streaming into memory for the purposes of buffering and reclocking, etc. but then network activity and playback activity would happen simultaneously and that more or less defeats the purpose of memory playback as I understand it. Nobody is going to wait a few minutes for their streams to load first before playback either, I'd guess.

Hi, @HifiVoice I'm curious if you'd share your impressions of what was the better sounding stream, and what the server software was for the stream, please?

Stefano, why would Minimserver have a sound? I don't know but I hear differences in software and others do to. Is it network traffic as JPlay suggests? Someone on a techy forum measured traffic and correlated it with his own impressions: lower traffic, better sound. But really, I am interested in IF things sound different/better, less so "why" because "logic" suggests it shouldn't. I am not interested in getting into logic when most of us are not electrical engineers with specific experience in digital noise, so if you don't hear differences, AWESOME - enjoy! And all the same, thanks for your comments, turns out yes YOU were CORRECT, my LMS active plugins page shows the UPnP checked. And interesting to me that I have not found UPnP Audirvana compelling enough to keep, preferring JPlay+LMS. The other variable here is that I'm mostly Redbook (with some purchased hi-res), having tried local upsampling and not having found the upsampling juice to be worth the squeeze (another controversy, sigh). So I'm with Fourlegs who finds LMS+JPlay better. So maybe in the next few weeks I'll switch back over to Minimserver because I enjoy the exploration as part of my enjoyment of music, assuming the Minimserver config can hold my interest in both attentive and indirect listening. So far I am liking LMS. You asked: My NAS and EtherRegen/LPS-1.2 are wired to an ASUS mesh network. From the Uptone EtherRegen/LPS-1.2, the end point is the Volumio Rivo w/ Uptone JS-2. DAC is downstream. Thanks again, I appreciate you sharing the info to straighten me out.

I have only done casual comparisons because I’m lazy in this regard (much more methodical with easy tests of things like cables), but I think I find LMS sound better than Minimserver. This impression goes back to when I had a microRendu and now with a Volumio Rivo. JPlay with LMS is better than Volumio too. I use LMS on my Synology and JPlay is also functionally more stable with that than Minimserver. Someone posted about time scrubber being out of sync…I feel like I get this with UPnP all the time (and hate it). Is LMS different than UPnP? And finally, is there some network behavior that might influence sound quality? Less activity perhaps? I just know that in the long run, I find my system emotionally engaging and something I want to listen to when things are working. I can tell when I make a change and I lose interest in sitting down for dedicated listening. JPlay with LMS is engaging. Other set ups have not resulted in engagement for me. Anyway, just suggesting that LMS may be worth trying for sound quality - many thanks to the people keeping LMS alive and reporting their impressions vs other protocols (if that is the correct term).

Sorry, there was so little interest I forgot to mark this as sold. Shame these guys didn’t make it thru the pandemic disruption.

[EDIT]: I get a similar error about "renderer busy" or something, using NAS/LMS and a Rivo streamer. I find that I just need to tap the song I wish to play a second time and things sort themselves out. A similar situation is when I change my mind and start another track, the previous track or next track begins playing and I have to stop that track then start the new track again. UPnP is funny stuff! LOL What is more annoying is when playback somehow continues after I stop it, and I effectively lose control of the playback. I can't see what's playing, and I can't stop it until I stumble upon the taps that cause playback to stop. Whatevs. Not sure if it's Jplay or UPnP but in general UPnP is less usable than iTunes (seriously) which largely just works (I stop, start, change my mind, whatever, it responds). But, Jplay does sound better so I use it. I appreciate the effort since I don't have an Aurender yet! Anyway, hope this might help - I just tap the song again after the error message goes away, and then playback begins.

I get this error as well using NAS/LMS and a Rivo streamer. I find that I just need to tap the song I wish to play a second time and things sort themselves out. A similar situation is when I change my mind and start another track, the previous track or next track begins playing and I have to stop that track then start the new track again. UPnP is funny stuff! LOL What is more annoying is when playback somehow continues after I stop it, and I effectively lose control of the playback. I can't see what's playing, and I can't stop it until I stumble upon the taps that cause playback to stop. Whatevs. Not sure if it's Jplay or UPnP but in general UPnP is less usable than iTunes (seriously) which largely just works (I stop, start, change my mind, whatever, it responds). But, Jplay does sound better so I use it. I appreciate the effort since I don't have an Aurender yet! Anyway, hope this might help - I just tap the song again after the error message goes away.

I will just say I have Gaia IIIs on hardwood floors and I consider them essential to getting the best from my speakers for my ears. Tested them against spikes, etc. and all that. But I am really posting here to say they are not designed to work at an angle: The bottoms are suction cup-ish so if they're not flat, they're not set up as designed. Additionally, and I don't know why (nor do I really care to be honest), they instruct you to position the Gaias with the logos of each foot facing the same direction together Could they "work" at an angle? Sure, why not? And even sub-optimally they might be great. I can see why people might like or need spikes but in my room/floor/gear, that sound is not for me; I find it technically interesting but musically uninvolving. Anyway, just sharing my bias on how this crazy phenomenon called the sound of music affects me, myself, and I. (Fortunately in this industry, n > 1) Good luck! 😀

I have this same issue with the Rivo streamer (by Volumio). I think the answer really is buck up and buy a "real" kilo-buck streamer; aka, Aurender, Auralic, Antipodes, Innuos, etc. At least the former come w/ in-house software, but as one who worked in software, I am both impressed and unsure those companies can continue to deliver both high quality hardware and software in today's marketplace. (OTOH, AI should begin to help with driving the cost and maintenance of the software down if it hasn't already, giving them some useful margin.) Maybe one more try with the new Denafrips Arce streamer, but I wish JPLAY well because I'm not a fan of Volumio either, and hope there is a solution to this syncing issue. This out of sync thing seems to be a kind of UPnP attribute. iTunes has spoiled me - it mostly just works (and actually sounds damn good for Red Book) and is thus more family friendly. I also got Logitech Media Server (LMS) running again on my NAS and will test JPLAY with that.

Just posting to say thanks for this context - LMS seems to stand the sound quality test of time, for those who care to fuss about such matters. I wish I could get JPlay to play better but these posts seem to suggest it's fundamentally UPnP and Minimserver. I'm referring to file access more than sound quality, but my experience with LMS a while back suggested it was the best sounding of the various servers I auditioned at the time (I don't recall all of them now).

+1 vote for local > streaming

@JoshM I don't recall if I've posted fully about a DAC comparison done by myself and a friend during Covid, so I can't link to anything. But, I mention it because you might be interested in giving the Denafrips Pontus II (not the 12th Annie version) an audition, if only as a point of reference as it seems to have won the ears of many online. My friend and I tried the Chord Qutest vs Pontus II vs Yggy OG. And I eventually got a LiM as well as would go so far as to say, it's a very different sound than the Yggy OG - enough to be considered a different DAC altogether. And yes, considerably better than OG (which has its appealing attributes but ultimately falls short of the LiM, for me). The Denafrips sound perhaps comes in part due to the lack of output stage in the Pontus DAC. I speculate that this results in the DAC's uncanny ability to render ritardando like I've not heard in any DAC, let alone digital playback in general (of course I've not heard everything out there). Still, the Pontus came across for me as a bit too rounded or polite compared to the Yggy and for my taste in music and sound, the Yggy LiM is the way to go (especially with the Shunyata Delta XC power cord, incidentally).

Art is weird like this, whether it's music or imagery or whatever. I'd think it's this way for most all songwriters: the hits are hits, but there are always random songs that speak deeply to someone, and maybe only a few ones. My favorite songs always seem to be the less popular ones, and generally for electric music I prefer the recording to a live show where the venue might not be so great, or the sound person isn't so great, or it's an off-night, or a million other reasons the recording is better, for me. Who knows why. (It's the "hard problem of consciousness.") That said, since Tears for Fears gets some love here, their recent show in Seattle was fantastic and the sound was unbelievably great! And live vs recording? Hearing the audience sing along to Head Over Heels...just brought tears to my eyes, certainly don't get that at home! lol Great interview and insight all the same, thank you Josh and thank you Gary–please keep writing those weird songs (along with the hits) for weirdos like me.

No longer timely nor relevant, but slightly relevant: I just heard Audeze headphones (TOTL models) for the first time and dang, they're almost like listening to speakers, but with the benefit of headphone details! Okay, first time in my life I've felt that way about headphones! So I stand corrected too: maybe headphones could open one's mind (and wallet) to speaker systems. Also the reverse - I may have to get some Audeze cans...

Clockmeister, Thanks for the extra detail and color commentary! I appreciate learning the perspective and context from which you're coming from because absolutely, one person's peach is another's, um, ploop. (Not that it matters, but I just read impressions of some rooms at the Pacific Audio Show here near Seattle. Wow, the reviewer's "most beautiful, lushest, hypnotic" was my worst or second worst-sounding room...and then there were a couple rooms we did agree on. Crazy hobby, this.) DACs...thanks for that tidbit, and I have felt a tug in your direction (the past). I have been finding that there's a careful balance between "past" technological approaches versus/combined with modern noise "aware" designs and implementations. Please don't let your digital testing fetish become too confident in its hypothesizing–words can't convey some of the things I hear (and love), and perhaps that's partly why this hobby is so wacky. Maybe you will help coin new expressions or words to bridge these sonic chasms, ha ha.

Apologies for interjecting, but I am excited to read all of your impressions and observe these experiments because it seems to me there is some "open" inquiry going on here and thus experimentation and testing accompanied by a, let's say, a willingness to explore with the idea that there is something here that we don't understand... I think this is where "science" begins? 😉 And I'm not saying that to be snarky or backhanded because what excites me is that I am the consumer interested in that extra 5% or 8% or 13%. Here's why: To even say there is a percentage gain suggests a predictable, incremental improvement of what is already there. But because I've experienced the following more than once, I would suggest that for some in this hobby, there are step functions where before, sure you got 95%, but that extra "percentage" gain actually takes you up a whole level that wasn't there before. Sometimes it's single thing like more tonal or timbral purity, sometimes it's the combination of things that rings much more emotionally true, but it's definitely not more of the 90+% same! And sadly yeah, sometimes that "piece of wire" step up comes with a four-figure step down in the bank account. 😭 And having said that, I am not the target market for $4K digital clock cables. I do however want to know where best to put my money, and these impressions reinforce the idea that "everything counts" and that sometimes a system component is also "just" a very expensive piece of wire. The above isn't meant to be a rant, rather an encouragement to continue on and expand our understanding, and perhaps take our sound up a step or two!

Thank you for sharing this much detail, @Jake Forsyth. It's inspiring to get the inside story to appreciate the human effort of this hobby. Although I don't own Ayre gear (I almost bought a Codex for speaker use), I have always appreciated Charlie's contribution to audio from the interviews I've read and other media references. As a Seattle resident, I will make a point to try and hear the new amp at Seattle Hi-Fi when it's released. Best wishes for growing the business and brand!

Yup, I've posted elsewhere that I failed to get Audirvana to work reliably over my wireless network using UPnP on an Auralic streamer. Auralic uses their own UPnP implementation and admitted their hardware doesn't work with Audirvana. I wanted an endpoint that could make Qobuz sound better so UPnP hardware needs to work with Audirvana for me. That endpoint is the Volumio Rivo, a streamer released last year that enables me to use UPnP for Audirvana, Airplay 1 with my old iTunes server which the whole house is connected to, and Spotify Connect. This way, all user personas (spouse, son, and me) can get what they want from the home audio system. (Incidentally, Auralic upgraded their firmware to Airplay 2 which killed support for Airplay 1 wireless devices. So another reason Auralic is off the table in my world.) If a new streamer is needed in the future, I will be looking for this certification.

I got one of the early Rivos because I wanted each of these specific features which I felt important in my experience and which Rivo offered at a reasonable price (no DIY for me, thanks): DNLA for use with Audirvana Airplay 1 for iTunes (not forcing me to go to Airplay 2 for Apple Music) AES output for use with my DAC Ability to use third party DC power supply Obvious attention to build quality for noise, etc. Reasonable quality software with history of support At the time there were not many streamers that seemed to offer high build quality with all these set up quirks of mine for less than $1000. If Volumio sounded good then that would be a bonus. I’ll say right up front that I don’t find Volumio to sound good; but it’s passable. Audirvana and iTunes are preferable for me, and iTunes works reliably and quickly. Can’t say the same for Volumio, sorry. I think the biggest sound quality upgrade is my Uptone Audio power supply. But, I would imagine that the Rivo sounds good even with the standard switching supply in most systems. Since this was released, I have not seen much promotion nor any reviews on major sites. And, iFi released a couple of new streamers at prices below the Rivo, so you might check those out first. I’m happy with my purchase but I’m not sure I would recommend it to anyone wanting full plug and play. I would buy it again for myself however because of all the things it enables me to have in one set up. (What I really want is a dCS Network Bridge!) And all the R-pi peeps will tell you how easy those are…so that’s an option for the adventurous.